Answers on "Andesine-Labradorite" color source!

[JB]

For those of you that are impatient for an actual scientific research report on this, THIS is what one may look like.

You see, it's something that takes a little time and knowledge, with the collaboration of many knowledgeable people, experimentation and advanced equipment.

Any one of us can say it's dyed, diffused, irradiated, heated, synthetic or any thing else without proof. You can even publish big splashy newsletters if you like stating the same. Now Prove it and show us how and why.

That's the hard part, isn't it? Merely mimicking an immersion test for another gemstone (or any gemstone) that showed similar results, doesn't grant scientific license to broad generalizations.

I don't care how it turns out, the facts will determine that. For all of the publicity afforded Mr. James, he has been unable to provide any across the board demonstrative proof.

He's in the comfortable position of sitting back and saying, "I told you so" without the responsibility of proving it with any collaborative scientific research.

If that's how it shakes out.

[Jim]

Hi Jim.
I have viewed about 50 andesine/labradorite cut stones with immersion. Certainly this is NOT a wide sampling.
(I use German Kreuss and Eickhorst scopes that are Immersion Microscopes).
I have used benzyl benzoate as my immersion fluid as the refractive index is close to that of plagioclase.

I have not noticed concentrations of color on facet junctions on any of the specimens that I've seen.

I posted this info several pages ago, and got several follow-up posts from folks who also have not noticed concentrations of color on facet junctions.

Clearly, some stones exist that are showing concentrations.

Karim, this is the kind of information I was talking about. Federman might be interested in what Barbra found.

JB, from what I have read, people have been asking questions about this gemstone since 2002. It has taken this long for someone to investigate treatment. I would think that 6 years is enough time for someone in the industry to take an interest and test these stones further. Hopefully, they will find that some of the stones are genuine. It is sad to think that it could come down to everyone that purchased this gemstone having to have theirs tested to see if it's treated or not. I hope that day does not come.

Thanks for all the info and response.

Jim

[stonecrazy]

Jim I have an orange red stone that I bought on July 17, 2004. Going on four years now. It was purchased from a seller in Thialand, but the exact source was unknow. The Seller had been told it was from China.

I didn't think much about it because it only cost $6.00 for a .55ct. stone. Also knowing the Chinese, they are not great at sharing information..
It was pertty, but nothing I would waste my time to put into a setting. But then I don't particularly care for the Oregon Sunstone either. So I moved on to more important things in my life.

Over the next several years I purchased 5 more up until April of this year.
None of the six tested in the immersion cell to have colorting on the facet junctions. Why is that Jim? The immersion cell is not particularly high tech. Especially when you rely on a Dixie Cup. I felt I had mastered the science.

From my description Jim, can you tell me where they came from? Can you tell me how they were treated in such a way as to totally mask the treatment. Why did your friend Robert wait all this time to pull out the Dixie Cup?
Where did you get your PHD Jim? Cal Tech? Duke? UCLA?

Questions Galore!!!

[weedwam]

Hi,

As an erstwhile JTV shopper, I must explain what prompted me to shop there.

It was the presenters. There are numerous GIA certified GGs employed by JTV. Surely they would not jeopardize their credentials by giving out incorrect information! The Diamond scandal aside, GIA trained gemologists would have been imbued with a standard of Ethics that insures honesty.

I followed this line of thinking while visiting Thailand, and was not disappointed.

M.

[Jim]

Jim I have an orange red stone that I bought on July 17, 2004. Going on four years now. It was purchased from a seller in Thialand, but the exact source was unknow. The Seller had been told it was from China.

I didn't think much about it because it only cost $6.00 for a .55ct. stone. Also knowing the Chinese, they are not great at sharing information..
It was pertty, but nothing I would waste my time to put into a setting. But then I don't particularly care for the Oregon Sunstone either. So I moved on to more important things in my life.

Over the next several years I purchased 5 more up until April of this year.
None of the six tested in the immersion cell to have colorting on the facet junctions. Why is that Jim? The immersion cell is not particularly high tech. Especially when you rely on a Dixie Cup. I felt I had mastered the science.

From my description Jim, can you tell me where they came from? Can you tell me how they were treated in such a way as to totally mask the treatment. Why did your friend Robert wait all this time to pull out the Dixie Cup?
Where did you get your PHD Jim? Cal Tech? Duke? UCLA?

Questions Galore!!!

None of the above - not a PHD. Got my degree from the University of North Texas. I'm not a gemologist and I would not know a true immersion cell if bit me. Just read on here that several people had done the immersion test and thought that maybe the forum would like to send in what they found.

To answer your guestions, I have no idea where your gemstones came from. I don't know where my gemstones came from, lol. Can only trust the vendors that stones were bought from and am finding out that some may not be credible. Before you tell me it's my fault, I will confess, it's my fault.

Don't have any idea how to tell how the treatment was masked from previous testers. I can only go by studying the berillium treatment on sapphires that it can be done on gemstones.

I don't know Robert, but can tell from reading his forum that he basically is trying to help consumers get some answers which I can appreciate.

Speaking of Cal Tech, has anybody heard when Dr. Rossman will publish his findings? I know that you will tell me I am impatient, but I've waited a couple of years for some information on this gemstone and when I saw that Dr. Rossman would be publishing his paper on the results I was excited. Hated to hear that he had postponed his findings.

Stonecrazy, it's always interesting to have a good hearted joust every now and then. I don't claim to know anything about treatment/irradiation/ diffusion of gemstones. I'm just hanging in here hoping for good news to come my way.

Thanks for the reply.

Jim

[Lou]

Dear Weedwam, I hope you were speaking tongue-in-cheek. If not, I have some disappointing news for you. But let me say first, that I like the presenters at JTV, also, they are fun and seem to have a genuine pleasure in gemstones. The bad news is that of the 21 presenters listed under "Meet the Hosts" only three are GIA Graduate Gemologists - Cheryl, Scott, and Nicole. Eight do have their Accredited Jewelery Professional certificates and of those, two are working on their GG.

Having a GG does not insure honesty. Perhaps you missed all the news coverage about the GIA working to clean up some in-house scandals, which I am glad to say seems to have been taken care of. The point is, corruption can occur anywhere.

You might also like to read the five page article in the May 2008 issue of Rock&Gem titled "Buyer Beware" about the corrupt gem industy in Thailand and see how that compares with your experience.

I hope all your gems are genuine and your experiences in Thailand were indeed profitable. But the best of us can be duped if we trust too much.

[Barbra Voltaire, FGG]

Still have no word on when or where Dr. Rossman will be publishing his report.

I don't doubt that Robert James wants to aid the consumer. Being a consumer advocate has always been one of his priorities.

I respect his observations, but I'm not convinced it is the final word on the subject.

[weedwam]

Dear Lou,

Can one have a partial "Tongue in cheek"

On JTV I checked out all the credentials before purchasing. As you say, there appeared a genuine love of the stones, and it was contagious! Now I am the owner of quite a few Andelabs. Thought I would leave them to my descendants.

Do you think the GIA will pull the Certs if it is determined that the sellers committed fraud? Some in management are also GGs.

In Northern Thailand I shopped at a small manufacturer, who had his Cert. proudly framed, and hung on wall. Both he and wife spent 3 mos. here in Carlsbad, and knew a lot about my home, San Diego.

He is one of few invited to Myanmar for their periodic rough auctions. From them I purchased a beautiful Burma Ruby and Imperial Jade ring. My jeweler here, from Idar Oberstein, was impressed.

BTW, the Thai Co. does all their own cutting.


Thanks for your comments.

weedwam

[colorshapetexture]

Anyone know where Andesine is cut ?
Anyone ever cut an Andesine?
Anyone ever seen it cut?
Granted I have seen plenty on the Oregon gems. They have their own set of rules for cutting. There is even info as to how to cut them.



Who is cutting all of this Andesine?

It seems someone would be proud to show you the operation that was cutting the thousands of stones.

I have heard stories of the piles of rough you have to go through and cut up to get a good stone............
But I think that this must be a first.
Having to go through piles of cut stones to find one piece of even crappy rough.

[colorshapetexture]

The real shame is, how much money is routed away from the Oregon miners that discovered this.
That have the real gem. (Then or now).
They have sent in kilos of material. Rough and cut. And they are starving. Because they can not figure out where this stuff came from soon after their discovery.
They will gladly show a gem at any stage. Anyone in the normal gem world will.
Want to see Diamonds from start to finish? No prob.
Want to buy a diamond in the rough? No Problem.
I want to buy Andesine Rough. (other than Oregon).
Lets get down to dollars.
I will pay the same price for rough as cut stone for Congo or any of the others.
Andesine rough stone. High grade and will purchase sample. Anyone?
Jim

[gem-n00b]

There are numerous GIA certified GGs employed by JTV. Surely they would not jeopardize their credentials by giving out incorrect information! The Diamond scandal aside, GIA trained gemologists would have been imbued with a standard of Ethics that insures honesty.

You have GOT to be kidding me. We have corrupt lawyers, judges, police officers, politicians, priests... but gemologists are above suspicion??? Come on...

[weedwam]

Karim,

The professions you cited are not generally known for their love of life and beauty. How about trust in your Physician or Pharmacist? I would place Gemologists into the latter group.

The latter professionals would soon be booted out of their Associations upon evidence of wrongdoing or any unethical conduct. Actually even the maligned lawyers are diciplined by the Bar.

Why are you coming to the defense of ethically challenged Gemologists? The fact that others do wrong is no excuse. THey place those of you who abide by the declared standards in unnecessary low esteem.

I say root out the the deadwood to the benefit of all!

[Doos]

Hi,

Everything on this subject has been said and repeated. All that is left is to wait for the research results.

[colorshapetexture]

THE END

[gem-n00b]

Why are you coming to the defense of ethically challenged Gemologists? The fact that others do wrong is no excuse. THey place those of you who abide by the declared standards in unnecessary low esteem.

I say root out the the deadwood to the benefit of all!

I'm coming to the defense of ethically challenged people? That's news to me. Maybe you'd like to consider knowing what you're talking about before you post it in an open forum...

The fact that other professions do wrong is indeed no excuse, what it is is excellent evidence that putting blind faith in people (because they have letters after their name, because other people listen to them, because they tell a good story, because they claim to speak to god, because they tell you what you want to hear, etc.) is a remarkably bad idea. As far as physicians and pharmacists, I think I'd put health care professionals in a slightly different category than gemologists (!) but note that there are also cases of even these most trusted people taking advantage of their possession and doing "wrong".

Note: I've banned weedwam, joining this forum with the express intent of "baiting" the members here is a not a valid reason for being here.