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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:38 pm 
Precision Gem wrote:
I think it looks like the IGS is silent, because I believe they are not allowed on this board.

I was not aware of that. Anyway, I was not thinking of remarks here but on their own site and maybe elsewhere. They hhave a lot of interesting stuff about the Andesine story - but its all old. Whether they have found themselves looking up the barrel of legal equivalent of a .45, who knows; could be anything but it is odd.

(Amusing tale snipped for brevity)

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So my question is what's going on?

Dunno, Boss. And we may never know. A knock-down, drag-out fight may be fun to spectate but it's hell to participate in and it's generally in no one's best interest except the onlookers (and the lawyers).


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:53 pm 
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I'm somehow on the IGS email list, so I did get an email just the other day on this topic, and a few over the past month, so they certainly are not being quite.

I wonder if any of this really matters much anymore. Is anyone buying this stuff? I don't see it on the gem TV shopping shows any more, but then I don't watch them too often, just when channel surfing. I know when China hosted the olympics there was a ton of the stuff being sold with the olympic logo laser inscribed in it. I would have thought that approach hurt the market as it gave it that cheap "Made in CHINA" look.

Next time I'm in NYC I'll look down on Canal Street and see if it's being sold there along with the Rolex watches and Gucci hand bags.

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:52 pm 
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I think that the whole Andesine market is so tainted, that if it was actually proved that some, most, or all of the Tibet material was genuine, it would hardly make a difference. The public got burnt, & knows it. A herd of Elephants never forgets, though I could be wrong, but I don't think that market will ever recover.

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:46 pm 
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
I think that the whole Andesine market is so tainted, that if it was actually proved that some, most, or all of the Tibet material was genuine, it would hardly make a difference. The public got burnt, & knows it. A herd of Elephants never forgets, though I could be wrong, but I don't think that market will ever recover.


Yea, verily. That said, the stuff is still on sale at c. 100 bucks per ct.


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:03 pm 
Precision Gem wrote:
I'm somehow on the IGS email list, so I did get an email just the other day on this topic, and a few over the past month, so they certainly are not being quite.

Their public forum seems to have been shut for quite while. Has it become a Closed User's Group?

Last time I looked (maybe a month ago) there was no update to their voluminous public Andesine pages in a loooong time. Nothing wrong in this, of course, but one is left wondering why?


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Kerensky wrote:
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
I think that the whole Andesine market is so tainted, that if it was actually proved that some, most, or all of the Tibet material was genuine, it would hardly make a difference. The public got burnt, & knows it. A herd of Elephants never forgets, though I could be wrong, but I don't think that market will ever recover.


Yea, verily. That said, the stuff is still on sale at c. 100 bucks per ct.


Yes, but who's buying? I see the same stone(s) on various sites now for a couple of years! Can't speak about e-bay, but it seems no one will touch it, vendor or consumer.

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:06 pm 
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
Kerensky wrote:
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
I think that the whole Andesine market is so tainted, that if it was actually proved that some, most, or all of the Tibet material was genuine, it would hardly make a difference. The public got burnt, & knows it. A herd of Elephants never forgets, though I could be wrong, but I don't think that market will ever recover.


Yea, verily. That said, the stuff is still on sale at c. 100 bucks per ct.


Yes, but who's buying? I see the same stone(s) on various sites now for a couple of years! Can't speak about e-bay, but it seems no one will touch it, vendor or consumer.

I bought one :lol: But not at 100 per ct.... Study stone y'unnerstan....? :)


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:15 pm 
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I think Jim is right about the market being tainted for these. It seems to have even carried over for the Oregon Sunstone. I cut these from time to time, and it's become a hard sell and at lower prices, at least in my limited experience.

I do feel bad for the people that got suckered into the so called Tibet and Congo stuff, and the labs should be held accountable. If peoples careers and reputations are damaged by this, they should be, especially if they knew better.

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:28 pm 
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See how you are, Kerensky? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:44 am 
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Kerensky wrote:
Precision Gem wrote:
I did read the articles, and am totally confused. They don't seem to draw conclusive conclusions. But you said "you betcha."

I guess my question is: Is there red facet grade material mined in Tibet that is not treated?

Do the articles answer this?


There are reputations - careers even - to be broken here. Not to mention a class action law suit running and (who knows?) how many others lurking covertly in the wings. Thus, if you find knowledgable experts being a little careful in their public statements at this time.... well, what else would you expect? What is unexpected and therefore may be of note is, after some years of riding red Tibetan Andesine = diffusion-treated Mexican yellow Feldspar wave, ISG seems very silent at this time, though that wave was substantially of its creation.


Dear all,
To understand better I guess that you should first read the article published in the current issue of "Gem & Gemology" that summarize all the topic. The pdfs present on GIA website are additional extensive and detailed documents supporting that article.
All the best,

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The views expressed here are V. Pardieu’s opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of GIA Laboratory Bangkok (http://www.giathai.net)where he is an employee since Dec 2008.


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Actually, let me rephrase and clarify.....as much as can be clarified, as my "You Betcha" was tongue in cheek and could easily have been misinterpreted. :oops:

The G&G article in question refers to the last Tibetan field trip, September 2010, which included Ahmadjan Abduriyim, Thanong Leelawatanasuk, Richard W. Hughes, Brendan M. Laurs, Flavie Isatelle and Young Sze Man of Jewellery News Asia. Accompanying them were Christina Iu (M. P. Gem Corp., Yamanashi, Japan), Li Tong and his wife, and He Qung (an employee of Mr. Tong’s).

They visited two purported andesine locations in Tibet: Zha Lin and Yu Lin Gu, located near the previously investigated Nai Sa–Bainang mining area in 2008.

The group observed strong field evidence for a genuine andesine deposit at Zha Lin, but could not confirm the authenticity of the Yu Lin Gu occurrence.

The caveat is that the deposits are sedimentary and no primary andesine-bearing source rocks were found in either area. Furthermore, no matrix specimens were found in the field. Sidebar: the alleged matrix specimens submitted from other parties, appear to be manufactured (not authentic).

The andesine samples obtained at Zha Lin and Yu Lin Gu by the 2010 expedition, were rounded pebbles, showing an overall low quality. Certainly NOTHING found resembled the plethora of attractive gems represented as Tibetan in the marketplace.

Argon isotopic studies indicated that the samples tested from Zha Lin and Yu Lin Gu had not been exposed to the high temperatures associated with diffusion treatment.

To quote directly from the concluding paragraphs in the G&G article:
Quote:
Although some of the evidence obtained from field and laboratory studies is supportive of genuine natural-color andesine from Tibet, the inconclusive and sometimes contradictory results described above and in other studies (e.g., Rossman, 2011; Peretti et al., 2011) indicate that not all the stones represented as Chinese or Tibetan are authentic. Our research has shown that to date there is no reliable, realistic way to separate the natural Tibet material from the treated stones from Inner Mongolia. It is possible that this separation might be made using a combination of several advanced techniques, but most of them are expensive, destructive, and/or not widely available, so they are impractical for individual andesines. Therefore, at this time, GIA’s laboratory reports on these stones state “Color origin cannot currently be determined.” Additional research is needed to establish unambiguous identification criteria for stones of natural versus treated origin.


So to address Gene's question, no, there is no indication that any of the gemmy red andesine sold in the marketplace, reported as Tibetan is actually authentic...BUT... has untreated reddish andesine, of a rather commercial quality been found in Tibet? Yes.

There still several unanswered questions about whether these alluvial, reddish, untreated, andesine pebbles found in Tibet are the result of natural geologic weathering and subsequent deposition or, if the whole bloody thing has been staged.

If anyone is interested in a copy of the article, PM me. Or, if you have any insight into they mystery, please post it.


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:17 pm 
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I found Red Andesine in my back yard the other day, along with a plethora of other gemstones! Ah, Iowa, the untold treasure trove of the world.

I also have a Great Dane, Old English Mastiff, & a Bloodhound. I find many things they leave in the yard too! Sometimes I step right on them! :shock:

Oh, I almost forgot! I met a Rhino who got deported from Africa in my backyard too! He had a case of Black Velvet stuck on the tip of his horn. I traded him a kilo of Red Andesine for it. I think I got the better part of the deal!!!

Hiccup. :smt030

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:16 am 
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
.... I met a Rhino who got deported from Africa in my backyard too! He had a case of Black Velvet stuck on the tip of his horn. I traded him a kilo of Red Andesine for it. I think I got the better part of the deal!!!

Hiccup. :smt030


Elvis.....do we know each other? :smt067 :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:05 am 
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Kerensky wrote:
ELVIS PRASIOLITE wrote:
.... I met a Rhino who got deported from Africa in my backyard too! He had a case of Black Velvet stuck on the tip of his horn. I traded him a kilo of Red Andesine for it. I think I got the better part of the deal!!!

Hiccup. :smt030


Elvis.....do we know each other? :smt067 :wink:


Yeah, but I don't remember? :smt002

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 Post subject: Re: red labradorite or red andesine
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:23 pm 
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If one can get past the stigma, and politics, of "Andesine", the "cherry red" material can be very lovely with the internal "burning ember" phenomena like ruby.

Some folks have seemed to have put the "purist" attitude behind them with diffused sapphire and some other treated gems.

Is "cherry red Andesine" worth $80 or $100 per carat? Probably not. But for the right price, the right color, and proper cutting, "cherry red Andesine" should become widely desirable, in my opinion. It looks better than most commercial grade Burma ruby, fracture filled ruby, more widely available, and in larger sizes although gem feldspar is much softer than ruby, as y'all know.

You never know what you might find in Iowa especially in those jumbo geodes. :mrgreen:


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