This deposit is known as Batakundi, with other nearby locations. They have been referred to "Kashmir Rubies" however on the Pakistan side or rather 'Azad Kashmir'. When the deposit was actually located and mapped though the deposit is not even within the boundary of Azad Kashmir. It is close, but outside this political boundary.
The market likes to still use the 'Kashmir' provenance because they believe that it will sell easier and for more money. This I cannot speak to however I do regret that there are labs who have actually issued reports for this material, using the Kashmir name. Early on, some labs called straight Kashmir. Later some modified the designation to: Pakistan (Azad Kashmir). However as indicated the deposit isn't even within the Azad Kashmir border.
For AGL, we call the origin as: Pakistan. No other mention.
This material can be quite interesting actually and so should be appreciated for what it is, rather than trying to pass it off for something that it isn't.
Only my opinion of course. Best regards to all, be well and stay healthy, Christopher P. Smith
Does the pakistan's sapphire also has the same sleepiness of kashmir?
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:36 am Posts: 118 Location: New York
This topic has not been brought up in a while. However, the type/kind of 'velvety sleepiness' you see in many kashmir sapphires in not present in the Pakistani material.
Actually, there are some exquisite, lovely ruby pieces that come out of mines of Batakundi and nearby. Just about a month ago, one guy from those areas tried to sell me corundum mined from there. It was as beautiful a piece of corundum as I've ever seen, blood color and relatively clean. Didn't by it because the asking price was too high, but...my word... he had every right to ask for a high price for those great pieces. If I can get pictures of it, will post it here.
@Christopher P. Smith I don't know where you get your information from, but Batakundi is well within the administrative boundary of Pakistani administered Kashmir. Been there myself. And if it were outside Pakistan's administrative control, how would Pakistani miners from all parts of the country be mining it? Check it out from some neutral sources.
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:36 am Posts: 118 Location: New York
Hello all,
Responding to this gentlemen's comment. I was informed that the actual sapphire deposits lie close to but not within the political boundaries of Pakistan-controlled Azad Kashmir. I am copying in a map from Google maps which appears to confirm this statement. The boundaries of Azad Kashmir are the dashed lines and the red balloon is the position of Batakundi.
Thank you for the quick reply Christopher. I told I've been there, so you should have given that some thought. Just to clarify, Google got it wrong in terms of marking a boundary between the province of KP and Pakistan controlled Azad Kashmir. Once you are in Batakundi, the Azad Kashmir administration can be seen all around (police, civil bureaucracy, etc.).
Here's a link of a miner who mines there and puts the products up for sale, where you can clearly see the mention of Batakundi in Kashmir
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:58 pm Posts: 1424 Location: San Marcos, CA
Mohmand wrote:
Check it out from some neutral sources.
Not to get involved but when provided with a neutral source you attacked it with I have been there so you must know and any other source will fail to your higher knowledge.
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:22 pm Posts: 21602 Location: San Francisco
Mohmand, you will never cease to astound me.
When I review your posts, the vast majority are riddled with gemological misunderstanding or misinformation.
Have you considered that the miner's mention of Kashmir may be more of a marketing ploy than a geographical reality?
Either way, the importance of any material lies not in the politically established geographical boundaries of origin, but within the actual character and quality of the gem. My 2¢.
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 1:19 am Posts: 370 Location: Pakistan
Clearly there is a mix up here , Batakundi is definitely in Pakistan , producing several shades of purple , incl red , blue , bicolors of blue and pinkish red zones and some trapiche .
HOWEVER there are ruby mines in Azad Kashmir , more famous among them at Nangi Mali . These produce only red and are controlled by govt of Azad Kashmir. This ruby at the top end can and does get wows , locally it commands premium over Batakundi and is considered at par with Tajik material because of its color quality .
As a local dealer I have bought and sold both mines but have never climbed up the heights besides Azad Kashmir govt takes a serious view of rubies moving out of its territories through non regulated channels leaving no doubt who the boss is.
Any origin statement that lumps these two separate locations as one would be wrong.
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:58 pm Posts: 1424 Location: San Marcos, CA
mrb wrote:
Batakundi mine is indeed within Pakistan but two major deposits at Nangi Mali and Chitta Khatta are well within Kashmir with govt of Azad Kashmir having administrative control over these. They sell once or twice through an auction at Muzzaffar Abad ; the capital city of Azad Kashmir .
most labs including Lotus and GIA , give common origin as Kashmir-Pakistan for all of these mines perhaps for geographical reasons than political divide . The stone in pic is a Nangi Mali stone.
There is no price premium for kashmir name in ruby market beyond curiosity.
Batakundi mine is indeed within Pakistan but two major deposits at Nangi Mali and Chitta Khatta are well within Kashmir with govt of Azad Kashmir having administrative control over these. They sell once or twice through an auction at Muzzaffar Abad ; the capital city of Azad Kashmir .
most labs including Lotus and GIA , give common origin as Kashmir-Pakistan for all of these mines perhaps for geographical reasons than political divide . The stone in pic is a Nangi Mali stone.
There is no price premium for kashmir name in ruby market beyond curiosity.
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 1:19 am Posts: 370 Location: Pakistan
Christopher P. Smith wrote:
Hello all,
This deposit is known as Batakundi, with other nearby locations. They have been referred to "Kashmir Rubies" however on the Pakistan side or rather 'Azad Kashmir'. When the deposit was actually located and mapped though the deposit is not even within the boundary of Azad Kashmir. It is close, but outside this political boundary.
The market likes to still use the 'Kashmir' provenance because they believe that it will sell easier and for more money. This I cannot speak to however I do regret that there are labs who have actually issued reports for this material, using the Kashmir name. Early on, some labs called straight Kashmir. Later some modified the designation to: Pakistan (Azad Kashmir). However as indicated the deposit isn't even within the Azad Kashmir border.
For AGL, we call the origin as: Pakistan. No other mention.
This material can be quite interesting actually and so should be appreciated for what it is, rather than trying to pass it off for something that it isn't.
Only my opinion of course. Best regards to all, be well and stay healthy, Christopher P. Smith
Pls read this ; "This deposit is known as Batakundi " says AGL . No insinuation here , just quoting an authoritative source.
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:58 pm Posts: 1424 Location: San Marcos, CA
mrb wrote:
Christopher P. Smith wrote:
Hello all,
This deposit is known as Batakundi, with other nearby locations. They have been referred to "Kashmir Rubies" however on the Pakistan side or rather 'Azad Kashmir'. When the deposit was actually located and mapped though the deposit is not even within the boundary of Azad Kashmir. It is close, but outside this political boundary.
For AGL, we call the origin as: Pakistan. No other mention.
Only my opinion of course. Best regards to all, be well and stay healthy, Christopher P. Smith
Pls read this ; "This deposit is known as Batakundi " says AGL . No insinuation here , just quoting an authoritative source.
Please read this as it is stated not as your interpretation. It is an opinion, not a authoritative source declaration of fact. "This deposit is known as Batakundi, with other nearby locations." Many COO calls (we call the origin as: Pakistan.)are alike to this opinion.
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 1:19 am Posts: 370 Location: Pakistan
Why not name " The other nearby locations " separately instead of saying they are " known " as Batakundi. ? Which they are not in this part of the world.
One " nearby location " is at Nangi Mali another at Chitta Kattha , both in Azad Kashmir , besides these Azad Kashmir rubies have no color similarities to Batakundi rubies .
Dubbed as Batakundi these locations are robbed of their own identity.
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