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 Post subject: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:49 pm 
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I have an opportunity to take on my first post-loss appraisal of stolen jewelry.

The backstory is the victim supplied a jeweler scrap gold and diamonds to use in the creation of a custom piece of jewelry. The jeweler never created the custom piece and never returned the scrap jewelry. I have been requested to appraise the retail replacement value of the pile of scrap gold. I have the purity and net weight of the gold that was missing, but I don't know how to approach the retail value of a pile of scrap.

In this case, should I figure the gold's melt value as the retail value of the lot? Any idea how I should correctly approach this?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sincerely,
Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:52 am 
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Hi Scott and welcome.
The value would not be retail replacement.
The value would be based on liquidation: the intrinsic value of the metal subtracting costs for refining.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:40 pm 
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Hmmm.... if I had a bunch of scrap 14k gold and was going to do lost wax, I don't think that would be correct, would it? I would just melt the 14k Gold and centrifuge it into the mold.

without the scrap, I would have to buy some gold to do the same thing - and the gold I bought would usually be significantly more expensive than its current value of gold per ounce.

Or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:40 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire, FGG wrote:
Hi Scott and welcome.
The value would not be retail replacement.
The value would be based on liquidation: the intrinsic value of the metal subtracting costs for refining.

Agreed, typically precious metal scrape value is determined at a current market value less fees. Adding a retail value to that is let's say, everyone in the jewelry biz would scrap out their cases in a windfall of retail value and head to the bank.
Here it is assumed that somebody didn't honor their word of producing something with a credit for the scrap gold, and now seeks out an appraisal at a retail value loss. I would speculate that in the end of the day this scrap is only worth what scrap value was at the time of loss. Metal market history values exist for many uses.

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:03 pm 
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dchallener wrote:
Hmmm.... if I had a bunch of scrap 14k gold and was going to do lost wax, I don't think that would be correct, would it? I would just melt the 14k Gold and centrifuge it into the mold.

without the scrap, I would have to buy some gold to do the same thing - and the gold I bought would usually be significantly more expensive than its current value of gold per ounce.

Or am I missing something?


Yep, you are missing the fact that gold which was made into stuff usually contains impurities, like solder, which can cause a casting to look like porous swiss cheese.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:21 pm 
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Been there got that in mass volume, .925 is not .825 or 14k is not 20% brass and 20% copper. The simple cheats in making the making of aged or reduced fat Swiss cheese.

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:22 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire, FGG wrote:
dchallener wrote:
Hmmm.... if I had a bunch of scrap 14k gold and was going to do lost wax, I don't think that would be correct, would it? I would just melt the 14k Gold and centrifuge it into the mold.

without the scrap, I would have to buy some gold to do the same thing - and the gold I bought would usually be significantly more expensive than its current value of gold per ounce.

Or am I missing something?


Yep, you are missing the fact that gold which was made into stuff usually contains impurities, like solder, which can cause a casting to look like porous swiss cheese.

Interesting. I have done this with sterling without any trouble, but have not tried it with gold.
Typically I can buy scrap 14k at much less than current spot rates, and buying casting gold from a supplier is quite a bit more than spot.
So I can't use that scrap for casting?


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:32 am 
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Of course you can use what you want but if excellent, clean, results are a priority, use refined metal.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:00 pm 
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When I worked in a repair shop in high school and college the boss said never use more than 50% scrap. Even when we used the customers scrap he required 50% new. His castings were always clean.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:29 am 
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I realize that I'm a month late to this but to add a little story:

At one of the shops that I'm doing appraisals for now, the scrap is just used as a credit against new gold because of the impurities problem. Apparently one of the manufacturers had a cast essentially explode on them because they were using a customer's old gold. I don't know the whole story of it and we all know how people like to put embellishments on those kinds of stories but the rule for them now is that they never cast with anything but new gold.

As for appraising what's lost. Based on your description I would agree with Barbra that you would take the gold weight and subtract refining costs (here we have some people take from 3 - 15% of the value for refining). Unless you talk with the client and you find out that it wasn't actual "scrap" and they were things like regular gold bands with stones that they just weren't using then you might have to appraise it differently at that point but if it was actual scrap gold (broken rings with no stones, pieces of chain/bracelets, earrings with no backs, etc.) then it would be done as liquidation value only.

Good luck with the appraisal!

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:56 am 
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I am curious if the same applies to silver scrap (which I used the one time I made a lost wax ring - without any problems). Our teacher at the time told us to use sterling scrap. Of course this was ... a *long* time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Loss Appraisal Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:00 pm 
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Sterling typically doesn't contain too many contaminating solders and alloys as opposed to gold.
Most gold items contain oodles of solder


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