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 Post subject: Imperial Topaz?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:54 pm 
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Imperial Topaz is a gem that has confused me for some time. I have seen and been told that any brown, pinkish-peach/salmon varitey of topaz is imperial but it seems that the title is used very liberally from place to place.

I just received a stone from gemselect that seems absolutley the same color as those I've seen on my other websites and even, ah-um, on the tv gem seller channels :shock: , (yeah, yeah - I watch sometimes, but you have to admit in a way the tv outlets are in fact a market within our field and they will from time to time give you a sense of what folks are willing to pay for certain material). Thing is, tv and most web dealers sell imperial for $150/carat and easily higher. Thru gemselect I paid about $7 a carat and the cut, clarity and color are superb?

Is there some kind of special qualification to determine imperial besides color?

I can't seem to find what I'm missing here?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:51 pm 
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At that price per carat I would bet it is irradiated to create the color. Knowing GS as I do, they sell on Ebay as well, they are not very good at disclosing treatments! They regularly sell diffusion, Be treated, irradiated, etc. gemstones listed as NO treatments. I have purchased a few stones from them in the past to test, and the sapphires were diffused and or Be treated and sold as natural with NO treatments or heat only. Imho they are a serious buyer beware vendor as in my personal experience you never know what you are going to get treatment wise!

Also watch out for their opals, they don't allow the rough to season, but instead cut and sell it fresh out of the ground so it retains much more carat weight and the loss due to unstable material is nil! After about 2-10mths the opal will completely cloud over and become opaque & likely crack and craze as well. This is a well know "scam" going on with the white & yellow opal "supposedly" from Mexico(as most tout it from) but in reality it is African and/or Brazilian material that is dug from deep in the earth and the moisture content is extremely high and should take years to season the rough before it is cut.

Also considering the majority of quartz and topaz that is coming out of Brazil is Cobalt-60 irradiated by Embarad, it adds even more evidence/odds that the material is irradiated. JCK even did an article on this a while back.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:13 pm 
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imperial topaz as i understand it, should have an orange/peach body colour with red/pink secondary hues, all other combos of colour are something else.its the red/pink hues that most stones hyped as imperial lack.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:28 pm 
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sticky-
here's my favorite place for advice/buying guides on collector gemstones-
http://palagems.com/topaz_buyers_guide.htm#buying_guide

thanks for the lowdown on gemselect, swishman! they have alot of faceted melanite garnet on their website, which i wondered if it were actually black garnet? spinel? or glass?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Sorry, can't help with the garnets, only purchased one from them, a spessartite red color, but it didn't test as a spess at all but just a pyrope-almandine mix, your standard run of the mill, but a nice fancy cut at least. Did get some red spinels I suspect are synthetic, simply due to the RI, but couldn't find any inclusions natural or synthetic to give an idea one way or other. Being 5mm they are not worth a lab report, lol. The one ruby I got was listed as heat only and was more glass then corundum, lol, but I figured as much honestly. Most stones looked nothing like their images because they are one of those vendors who uses image editing as a deceptive tactic and not a legitimate one imho, as stones were much brighter, better colored, etc. in the images but when arrived were very dull, dead, windowed, and over all poorly cut for the most part. There were a few that had very nice cuts though with a little above your normal commercial polishing. Aside from the blatant lies about treatments, I still was NOT at all satisfied with the purchases! Emails about the issues went unanswered completely! I should have filed PayPal dispute, but lost track of the time limit testing the stones and missed my window to do so. But lesson learned and wrote it off as investigative expenses, rofl. They are one of the sellers I typically use as an example of how Ebay's feedback system is easily padded and basically falsified. There are a few others as well. The only thing I was satisfied with was the garnet(even though NOT spess) and a sphene, but not worth the $100+ spent, lol.

But, as a consolation, I have come to learn that most of the Thai sellers lump everything/anything under heat treatment, lol. Just like to most Brazilian vendors, heat treatment seems to mean heat, diffusion, or irradiation, lol. Is this due to a translation or understanding problem? Or is it due to deceit? I can not answer that. Some, it is flat out deceit! I specifically asked Gemselect about diffusion/Be and was told no. Fyi, they sell under SettGold on Ebay in case anyone wants to know. There is also a ripoff report and some others on them too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:39 pm 
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I never really understood what set imperial apart from other topaz's other than the color...reds, pinks, oranges, etc. Here is a imperial topaz crystal I have from Ouro Preto..it's my only one right now..I sold a larger one i had a few months ago but the color was lighter
Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:37 pm 
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:)thanks again for the info on gemselect/settgold, swishman. i haven't mustered the courage to purchase gemstones/jewelry (actually anything) from e-bay, even though there are honest people which have sites on e-bay.

amguy-
that's a nice imperial topaz crystal and i like the color of it!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Easy test for imperial topaz.

Check price. Costs $7 a ct? Not Imperial! Easy as pie. ; )

I have paid well into 5 figures for ONE piece of fine Imperial rough, and done this a number of different times. True Imperial even in a mediocre color is not cheap. In a fine color it is VERY expensive. We have bought houses for less than we have spent on one piece of Imperial. (Of course there are nice gems in medium color for a lot less but still in the hundreds to thousands a ct, not $7.)

If you want to check for irradiation just put it in the sun for a day or two, if irradiated it will fade pretty quickly. There are some natural topazes from other locales in the brownish range that can be naturally this color and also fade. But Imperial should hold its color.

Alan Hodgkinson seemed to also say that the RI was slightly different for the irradiated material as compared to Imperial. Don't know why that would be and have never tested it but I think that is what he claimed.

I buy the rough based on crystalography and fade resistance. (Also try to buy from people I know.) The crystal habit is a "rough" indicator of origin. Once it is cut then you go with the fade test, RI and an experienced person's judgement of the color. Beware any brown hues, they are probably not from the Ouro Preto area and not true Imperial IMO.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:08 pm 
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johnddyer wrote:
Easy test for imperial topaz.

Check price. Costs $7 a ct? Not Imperial! Easy as pie. ; )

I have paid well into 5 figures for ONE piece of fine Imperial rough, and done this a number of different times. True Imperial even in a mediocre color is not cheap. In a fine color it is VERY expensive. We have bought houses for less than we have spent on one piece of Imperial. (Of course there are nice gems in medium color for a lot less but still in the hundreds to thousands a ct, not $7.)


:lol: john!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Just for the record, I didn't have any expectations of getting a two thousand dollar stone for that price. :roll: Basically I was buying with the intention of getting a nice peach colored topaz. For twenty five bucks I really don't have anything to lose. :D

I am certainly unhappy with the revelation that gemselect is selling these stones as natural when they may have in fact been irradiated. I am contacting them and we will see if they have the testicles to come on here and set the record straight.

What I was really just getting at is where is the fine line in defining the imperial. I think I'm a bit closer to understanding, but.........It would seem that Imperial should not only be defined by color but basically must also originate in those few particular Brazilian locales? Would that make some sense in a way?

Maybe, perhaps, the key is to mentally block these trade names out of my head and instead concentrate on the shades and colors.



(edited for grammar)


Last edited by robertb on Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:28 pm 
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Is there a way of telling the natural brown topaz from the irradiated coloured topaz?
Christine

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Good question. I always wondered if you could put an irradiated stone up to one of the "geiger" counters you see in the movies? Do those things even exist"? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:10 pm 
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robertb

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I always wondered if you could put an irradiated stone up to one of the "geiger" counters you see in the movies? Do those things even exist"?


yup they do, unfortunately they cost a little more that 3 monthly payments of 39.95 to ACME.

would probably be a good idea to test blue topaz as well, this is in case somebody gets greedy and ships irradiated goods before they "cool off"

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:48 pm 
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wolf wrote:
robertb

Quote:
I always wondered if you could put an irradiated stone up to one of the "geiger" counters you see in the movies? Do those things even exist"?


yup they do, unfortunately they cost a little more that 3 monthly payments of 39.95 to ACME.

would probably be a good idea to test blue topaz as well, this is in case somebody gets greedy and ships irradiated goods before they "cool off"



Wolf is just about right on the cost. You can get a good GM45 type geiger counter that picks up alpha, beta, gamma/ xrays for about $135. I've tested hundreds of stones, esp. the treatable kind like the topazes, but have never gotten anything above background.

With that scare (about 2 years ago) they've gotten more strict on testing materials coming into the country, so it's not likely you are going to get anything hot.

bear


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Don't forget to test the bananas in your kitchen after you test your topaz

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