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 Post subject: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Hello people! (Sorry for my bad english)
I have some questions for you all regarding rough gems/stones.

Now..
What do i need to look for in roughs to see whether or not it can be cut, and made into a fine piece of gem?
And i just want to say - that i have absolutely no mentionable knowledge in gemology, whats so ever!

Thanks in advance 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Uh... you might want to reconsider the order you're doing things here. You want to put the time in to learn about the subject before throwing money at it. Believe me, there are so many ways you could get screwed in this business, even if you have a good knowledge of the subject.
But, if you insist, this is what I would suggest: stick to tourmaline rough, make sure it has its distinct recognizable crystal form. Tourmaline tends to be pretty distinctive and it hasn't been synthesized commercially. It also tends to behave relatively well, though there are occasionally tourmalines from hell which decide to fall apart on the lap. Avoid "rough" that has too many internal inclusions, because those will cut down on brilliance as well as looking messy. Go for good color. Don't buy anything too dark--if you need to put light behind it to see the color DO NOT BOTHER. If it's a tourmaline, if it is black down the length, DO NOT BOTHER.
But yeah, that's not going to help too much. You really need to do your research before shelling out your hard-earned dough.

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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:55 pm 
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Scarodactyl wrote:
Uh... you might want to reconsider the order you're doing things here. You want to put the time in to learn about the subject before throwing money at it. Believe me, there are so many ways you could get screwed in this business, even if you have a good knowledge of the subject.
But, if you insist, this is what I would suggest: stick to tourmaline rough, make sure it has its distinct recognizable crystal form. Tourmaline tends to be pretty distinctive and it hasn't been synthesized commercially. It also tends to behave relatively well, though there are occasionally tourmalines from hell which decide to fall apart on the lap. Avoid "rough" that has too many internal inclusions, because those will cut down on brilliance as well as looking messy. Go for good color. Don't buy anything too dark--if you need to put light behind it to see the color DO NOT BOTHER. If it's a tourmaline, if it is black down the length, DO NOT BOTHER.
But yeah, that's not going to help too much. You really need to do your research before shelling out your hard-earned dough.


Thanks for your help.
Now, i can't really 'learn it' without having my hands on, can i? - this is going to be a hobby, and probally a business - as a gemcutter.

But i agree that i need to learn alot about those precious stones.


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Noobie wrote:
Thanks for your help.
Now, i can't really 'learn it' without having my hands on, can i? -
.

Of course you can.
If one wants to be a cardiac surgeon are they handed a scalpel and someone needing bypass surgery? :wink:

If you just wanted to blindly jump in, you wouldn't be asking this question on a gemological forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
Noobie wrote:
Thanks for your help.
Now, i can't really 'learn it' without having my hands on, can i? -
.

Of course you can.
If one wants to be a cardiac surgeon are they handed a scalpel and someone needing bypass surgery? :wink:

If you just wanted to blindly jump in, you wouldn't be asking this question on a gemological forum.


But i just want to touch em stones :(


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:38 pm 
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OK, if you're just looking to dip your toes in the water you'll have more luck. You'd be surprised at the people who want to dump a lot of money into gems right at the start without much preparation at all. Really, though, research should come first. Spend some time browsing here especially, as this is an awesome resource. One great thread is the "before and after: show YOUR transformation pics" thread in the lapidary corner. While that tends to be nicer-quality rough, it gives you an idea of what comes from what.


Let me add a couple more tips. Mine are pretty basic--I'm not a cutter myself, so any rough I buy I have cut by someone else. Still, there are some things to look out for.
-Spodumene/Kunzite/"hiddenite": you'll see these for sale online in huge sizes and often gorgeous colors for very reasonable-looking prices. Spodumene is a jerk. The bright green stuff (Excluding true chromium-rich hiddenite, which you won't find in large sizes or for low prices) is universally irradiated and will fade in sunlight. Much of the pinks and purples will fade wholly or in part as well. Yellows vary. Green-yellows vary. Spodumene will also break with little to no provocation, even as late as the polishing stage. It can be stunningly beautiful when cut, but don't bother at this point.

-Skardu/Gilgit brown topaz: again, these are often available online for very low prices in huge sizes. This stuff is almost always irradiated to achieve its brown color, resulting in stones that are heavily zoned on closer inspection. These will also fade to colorless in sunlight, and often from the heat of cutting as well. Just say no. In fact, most brown topaz will fade, some are just nicer about it than others. EG, Colorado brown topaz looks better IMO and fades more slowly.

-Closed C-Axis tourmaline: I mentioned it above, but I'll say it again. If the tourmaline is black down its length, don't bother. These stones are hella frustrating, since they can look absolutely stunning, especially with a little backlighting. They just don't do much once they're cut for the most part, since that black blends in and makes everything too dark.

-Dark red garnet: same as closed c-axis tourmaline. It's tempting because hey, that red color is amazing with a little back lighting! But it won't be when you cut it, it will be dark and maybe you'll get a flash or two of red in it.

-Small stuff: when I was first buying gem rough (I was pretty young at the time) I didn't have a good appreciation for just how much is lost in the cutting process. You rarely do until you actually do it. Fortunately my budget was as small as the stones I bought, so it didn't matter. But yeah, remember how much larger that rough has to be to get a stone worth cutting for.

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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:45 am 
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Do I detect a string pull here???


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:03 am 
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String pull??

I did a lot of reading in this forum and the links on the sidebar. My knowlege increased alot about what to expect when cutting and how to examine stones. I got my hands dirty (so to speak) at roadside slucing areas and obtained a lot of rough that I spent a lot of time examining and trying to put what I learned into practice before I started cutting.

I think you can just jump right in and facet however your satisfaction and sucess will be greater if you do some studying first.

Just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:37 am 
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This is going to seem kind of complicated but I don't really want to discourage you. You'll need a couple of things, a penlight (I use a mini Maglite) and some optivisors.

Now imagine you're in a completely dark room. Someone off your left shines a flashlite at the wall to your right. Now if the room has no dust in the air, no smoke, nothing at all floating in the air, you won't see anything except the light against the wall. If there's a haze in the room, you can see the path of the light across the room and now let's say there's a piece of glass that's pointed at two corners of the room. You'll also see the glass when the light reflects off of it. You're going to do the same with a piece of rough in that the rough will be your dark room.

Hold your thumb on the penlite so that it covers up part of the lens and only shines a little light into the stone and also blocks any light that would shine into your eye. Roll the rough around and look for haze or cracks. A crack will show up as light reflected back to your eye, like that imaginary piece of glass in the room. If you can see the light go from one side of the stone to the other, that's haze. By rolling the stone you'll be able to tell if it's a surface crack or one deep within the stone that will cause problems with the cutting. Bubbles or foreign objects like carbon spots will show up too. Remember that some of the things you'll see are reflections from the back surface of the stone too.

Don't get the idea that this little tutorial will make you an expert though. I've been looking at rough for 35+ years now and still things sneak by me. Most of all you'll need to practice, practice, practice! Look at good rough, look at bad rough. Study crystal formations and cleavages to try and ID the rough as you get it. You can get a pretty good idea of what kind of stone you're looking at (Garnet or Ruby or rubelite tourmaline) with just these tools. This will by no means make you any kind of a gemologist but it will at least give you a rough (pun intended) idea of what you're looking at.

Also, don't try and make a piece of rough something it isn't. By that I mean don't try and justify in your mind that an ugly ruby is more valuable than a clean piece of garnet rough simply because it's a ruby. I see a lot of really junk emerald rough being sold out there and the operative word is JUNK. Big deal if it's emerald! It's still only fit for the bottom of your aquarium or in my case, driveway gravel.

Hope this helps you out a bit

Pete

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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:18 am 
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For the price you are going to spend on rough when there are soooo many folks that will take your money and give you nothing, consider going to something like William Holland School of lapidary Arts, which a week is $330ish plus class fees. There are id classes, cutting classes, etc. You can handle and learn what to look for with a much lower risk.

lapidaryschool.org

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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:45 pm 
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For beginners I would recommend that they have to decide between drum quality (esoteric minerals), qualities for cabochons and qualities for to facet. In a german forum I explained this. If you want to start faceting stones, Noobie, you should aks people (faceters) where they buy their rough. The rough inside should not have cracks or gas bubbles and the finer the color (quality) the more joy you have in mind. Topaze perhaps will get problems because of the gaplines (now you have to excuse once more my rusty english).

Buy only from a reputable dealer which has end levels of grind.

Only my opinion.... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 11:08 am 
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Hi, I think Pete and others did a really good job explaining. I am newbie and I found this web page helpful as well:

http://facetingacademy.com/learn-faceti ... ugh-class/

Generally speaking, go with the cleanest crystals possible. Many dealers sell them with just one picture provided which is always risky in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 2:09 pm 
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You need to look for color, clarity, and shape. Dull colors of good shape and clarity won't sell even if cut well. Likewise nicely colored stones of poor clarity won't sell and poorly shaped rough no matter what color or clarity can't be cut. The first mistake that beginners make is to buy rough that is too flat to cut, the seller recognizing that the buyer is not knowledgeable and will dump the dregs of the lot on the poor buyer. But if you just want to touch them, these will do you.


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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:39 am 
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Other than "don't spend money until you've learned to facet" and echoing George's suggestion about William Holland, this might be useful. I wrote it for Ultra Tec a while back.

http://www.ultratec-facet.com/PDFs/BUYING%20GEM%20ROUGH%20-%20Article.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Going to buy roughs, but........
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:10 pm 
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You should do some research in the Lapidary Corner: Colored Stones section of these forums. I did alot of background reading regarding faceting gemstones there. I am also interested in getting started in faceting, but I did months of research beforehand. I just ordered a faceting machine to start on, and I'm planning on using cheap quartz and garnet rough to learn on. I recommend doing some reading. It's a large financial investment. I'm just doing it for a hobby, but if you are thinking of going into business in faceting, I would definitely read other people's opinions. It is not an easy field to break into, and is not easy money. Definitely research the field in depth before you commit.


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