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 Post subject: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Hi
ever since i had a two week work placement at a Family members bespoke jewellery store in Hatton Gardens all I've wanted to do is get straight into the industry
I am currently 16 and are about to leave school
i have two options. first to study at college to get some useless A- level that i would probably never use in my life or i can get straight into the industry i love
so i would like to know if you have any advice on what i can do e.g. apprenticeships, colleges, on job learning, and age limits for certain courses
Thanks very much
Michael

(p.s. so far I've had experience in handling Gems in the correct manner, weighing, pricing and cleaning so i suppose i am looking more into the Gemmology side of the industry as im not very good at Art so i don't think working on the bench will be good for me but i have already looked into Holts Academy in the heart of Hatton Gardens


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Hi Michael,

At 41 years old I've learned a *few* things from my mistakes. When I was 16 I started the GIA home study course. I did not have the self-discipline to finish. I convinced myself that I would finish it later and that it would be adequate to get me the job i wanted in the industry so I did not go to college. That was a mistake.

I strongly encourage you not to ditch college. If you want to go for your GIA GG then by all means do so. Even do it first if you like, but go to Carlesbad and take the courses on site. It will be a much richer experience for you. But, GO TO COLLEGE. Get at least a bachelors. In today's world it matters not how smart you are (necessarily) but what kind of paperwork you have. GET A DEGREE. I would imagine a BS in Geology or some other earth science coupled with a GG from GIA will open the doors you want a lot faster than the GG alone. Besides, at your age, you need the experience college brings. It's a way to learn the world, what it is and what it is about.

Gemology is a wonderful thing! You've come to the right place for advice and support on your journey towards being a great Gemologist. Please be active here in the forums. Ask your questions, participate. There is no other forum or place where you can get such a wealth of gemological knowledge for no charge. Read all the materials listed on the left of the home page. Take the free gemology course offered there. You've got the interest, Gemology Online has the data. There are also from time to time free gemology chats on various subjects. You can find the chatroom in the first section of this forum.

I have many regrets about how i dealt with my future. I shudder when i see aspiring teenagers talk about shunning college or speaking of it with disdain or disregard. Had I gone to college and worked my tail off to get a degree I believe i would be in a much better position now than I am. DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE!

One more thing...

IF you want a really exciting adventure before college that will still keep you in learning mode, check into going to the Asian Institute of Gemological Sciences in Bangkok, Thailand. You can get a GREAT education there and dally with suppliers and miners and gemologist in the hub of the gem trade. I would even consider going to AIGS and then college and then taking the GG from GIA. Extra letters after your name NEVER hurts!

Best of luck to you and I hope to see you here ALOT!

Jason Brim

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Hi
thanks for taking time out to reply to my message..its appreciated alot as i am quite lost
I can see your point about college but currently i really don't know what A-level or course i can take that will benefit me.I have already spoken to Gem-a and i have to be 18 to start of any course that will lead me on to the degree..so currently its really a problem of finding right a levels/courses or some experience
what you've said has really given me something to think about thanks alot and i hope to be on here alot learning as much as i can and just for pure enjoyment as i find Gemology to be completely fascinating


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:55 pm 
Hi Michael,
I am also learning and I can imagine how you are feeling, I was in London for a year for an IT degree from Sept'09 - April'10, then I went back to my city which is a gemstone/jewellery hub in India as gems and jewellery fascinated me more, I am still continuing my bachelors at Middlesex Uni through distance learning and also learning about gems and jewellery simultaneously. As a consequence, I ended up in Hatton Garden last year in September for an internship for 2 months. Though I am not really experienced, I'll just say do what you like to do, whatever fascinates you the most. I have heard people get success when they love to do the work they are doing. If you like gems, don't give it a second thought, just jump into the field.
I also agree with Jason, college gives you an experience like none other. I am sure people around here would be helpful to motivate and inspire you.


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:48 pm 
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May I direct you to a very recent post by Kyriakin:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14798&p=153886#p153886

Taking some university Business Administration Classes might be something to consider as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:40 pm 
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AspiringGemologist wrote:
i have two options. first to study at college to get some useless A- level that i would probably never use in my life

At 16 I understand how you feel, BUT this idea of some types of knowledge being unused, or useless, is NOT correct. It really doesn't matter what you are learning as much as developing the ability to learn HOW to learn. Even though college is designed to teach you specific things, and it looks like you may never use them, I can assure you that everything that you learn in your life can be used in some way later on. Don't skip college if you have the opportunity to go, (besides, it's much easier to get a part time job in nearly any field if you're a student, so no reason not to get an education in both areas).

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or i can get straight into the industry i love so i would like to know if you have any advice on what i can do e.g. apprenticeships, colleges, on job learning, and age limits for certain courses

Probably not going to happen in the way that you would like it to. Apprenticeships in most fields are declining for a number of reasons and their are few specific training programs for jewelers. College is your best bet and I would suggest getting an education in engineering of some type, as that will give you some base knowledge in computer modeling, material science and structural design as well as those pesky required courses in reading and writing effectively.


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im not very good at Art so i don't think working on the bench will be good for me but i have already looked into Holts Academy in the heart of Hatton Gardens

Art involves having a strong interest and then a LOT of practice. Some people have natural talents and others have to develop them, but they can be developed in nearly everyone if the interest is there. At 16 you should not sell yourself short by saying that you aren't good at something. Go to college, study a lot of different stuff, get a part time job at a jewelers or just study gemology in your spare time, and the follow the things that interest you.

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Hi guys thank you so much for your advice
i am taking everything into consideration
im going to start looking for suitable a levels or courses at college now
while also trying to find some connected to Gemology
if you guys have information on any long -short term courses in gemology or something that will benefit me, i will appreciate it if you can send it to me
once again thank you for your help :)
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:55 pm 
I'm going to be really controversial here. However, this post has struck a chord with me.

If you know what you want to do with your professional life, enter it now!

You can spend 5 years (A-level and degree) racking up huge debts, so you can emerge from university with a lot of academic knowledge, but no work skills or experience.

Or, you can start from the bottom at 16. Not only will you not be racking up huge debts on over-priced ('scam') tuition, but you'll actually be earning money all of those 5 years.

Fast-forward 5 years, and you'll be financially sound; with loads of work experience to make you very employable.

Whereas, if you'd have gone the university route, at 22 you'll be sitting on 30,000 pounds of debts, and have absolutely no real-world work experience like all the other useless grads out there (myself included).

And trust me, if you've had financial fluidity from the ages of 18-21, you'll have been having a good time too. With no parental support, university is one hard financial slog, and the potential for 'fun' is limited by the fact that 'fun' costs money.

Your school will tell you that a life in McDonald's awaits you if you don't do A-level/university. They have to say that! A secondary school that has a large % of kids not continuing into further education falls drastically down the government's oh-so-precious league tables.

Even your parents, who likely came from a generation where a degree actually meant something (rather than a dumbed-down, over-saturated and completely over-priced piece of paper), might also try and nudge you towards university. However, they will be doing that with your best interests at heart.

There are short courses all over the UK where you learn SKILLS. These courses are cheap, short and relevent.

Of course, if you want to be a doctor or an engineer (etc.) you have to go to univeristy. However, the assumption is that the debt would eventually be repaid via a gainful salary after graduation (although this is changing now, as everything become over-saturated - plenty of law grads with $130K debts are flipping burgers in The States).

Hell, I even know a couple of people who left school at 16 to work for peanuts at accountancy firms ('working for peanuts' is better than 'paying to work' at university btw), took all their professional accounancy exams 'in-house' over the years when they would have been at university, and ended up in a much better situation than an accouncy university-grad at 22 years old. So the 'non-university' route is even possible with fairly 'academic' careers.

However, the number of people I know who paid 30,000 pounds to study history (read a load of books for free!), journalism (just write stuff - if it's any good you'll get noticed!) or languages (work as a barman in that country for three years!) at university is mind-blowing.

In short, I believe that most university education is nothing more than a big scam to get young people into the debt system, and educational institutions have morphed in to a very cynical money-making machine.

You want to be a gemologist. That is definitely not a 'must go to university career' (unless you want to be a lab gemmo, and then you got to study to a very high level in Science, but such jobs are rare). Go offer yourself to work for next-to-nothing at a jewellers anywhere. Hopefully your parents live close-by London (a luxury I never had in Devon!) and your over-heads will be small. Eventually you'll find an employer who'll pay for you to do an FGA (or whatever), but given that the #1 advantage to gem study is the networking you'll do, well it's not a huge deal as you'll (hopefully) be existing in the Hatton Garden 'hot-zone' anyway.

Employers don't care about qualifications, thay care about experience.

Note: If the non-university person decides at 22 that actually they do want to go to university, the option is still open.

They'll be more mature and probably more capable of doing it properly.

I just feel very strongly that 17 (when you have to commit to uni in the UK usually) is way too young to make a financially life-changing decision; especially when schools, recruiters, governments (etc.) are feeding you all manner of BS statistics, promises and lies.


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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:39 pm 
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I'm not going to disagree with the above post by Kyriakin except to note that the single greatest challenge for me to overcome has been a lack of a bachelors degree. I've been stuck in lower in jobs my entire life because to get a higher end job you either A) have to be promoted from within or B) have a degree. If experience were all that employers wanted then I should have had no trouble finding a job in the gem/jewelry industry. I've been selling gems for 10 years. But about 85% of the job openings that I apply for state specifically that they require a bachelors. I haven't gotten a job yet.

If you can get your foot in the door and enter the industry so that you can work your way up the ladder from the get go then by all means, do so. But that's going to take some serious planning and crafty footwork to get to know those in the know so you can make moves when you want to.

J-

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:50 pm 
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Kyriakin wrote:
I'm going to be really controversial here. However, this post has struck a chord with me.

If you know what you want to do with your professional life, enter it now!

You can spend 5 years (A-level and degree) racking up huge debts, so you can emerge from university with a lot of academic knowledge, but no work skills or experience.

Or, you can start from the bottom at 16. Not only will you not be racking up huge debts on over-priced ('scam') tuition, but you'll actually be earning money all of those 5 years.

Fast-forward 5 years, and you'll be financially sound; with loads of work experience to make you very employable.

Whereas, if you'd have gone the university route, at 22 you'll be sitting on 30,000 pounds of debts, and have absolutely no real-world work experience like all the other useless grads out there (myself included).

And trust me, if you've had financial fluidity from the ages of 18-21, you'll have been having a good time too. With no parental support, university is one hard financial slog, and the potential for 'fun' is limited by the fact that 'fun' costs money.

Your school will tell you that a life in McDonald's awaits you if you don't do A-level/university. They have to say that! A secondary school that has a large % of kids not continuing into further education falls drastically down the government's oh-so-precious league tables.

Even your parents, who likely came from a generation where a degree actually meant something (rather than a dumbed-down, over-saturated and completely over-priced piece of paper), might also try and nudge you towards university. However, they will be doing that with your best interests at heart.

There are short courses all over the UK where you learn SKILLS. These courses are cheap, short and relevent.

Of course, if you want to be a doctor or an engineer (etc.) you have to go to univeristy. However, the assumption is that the debt would eventually be repaid via a gainful salary after graduation (although this is changing now, as everything become over-saturated - plenty of law grads with $130K debts are flipping burgers in The States).

Hell, I even know a couple of people who left school at 16 to work for peanuts at accountancy firms ('working for peanuts' is better than 'paying to work' at university btw), took all their professional accounancy exams 'in-house' over the years when they would have been at university, and ended up in a much better situation than an accouncy university-grad at 22 years old. So the 'non-university' route is even possible with fairly 'academic' careers.

However, the number of people I know who paid 30,000 pounds to study history (read a load of books for free!), journalism (just write stuff - if it's any good you'll get noticed!) or languages (work as a barman in that country for three years!) at university is mind-blowing.

In short, I believe that most university education is nothing more than a big scam to get young people into the debt system, and educational institutions have morphed in to a very cynical money-making machine.

You want to be a gemologist. That is definitely not a 'must go to university career' (unless you want to be a lab gemmo, and then you got to study to a very high level in Science, but such jobs are rare). Go offer yourself to work for next-to-nothing at a jewellers anywhere. Hopefully your parents live close-by London (a luxury I never had in Devon!) and your over-heads will be small. Eventually you'll find an employer who'll pay for you to do an FGA (or whatever), but given that the #1 advantage to gem study is the networking you'll do, well it's not a huge deal as you'll (hopefully) be existing in the Hatton Garden 'hot-zone' anyway.

Employers don't care about qualifications, thay care about experience.

Note: If the non-university person decides at 22 that actually they do want to go to university, the option is still open.

They'll be more mature and probably more capable of doing it properly.

I just feel very strongly that 17 (when you have to commit to uni in the UK usually) is way too young to make a financially life-changing decision; especially when schools, recruiters, governments (etc.) are feeding you all manner of BS statistics, promises and lies.


Fantastic post!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:14 am 
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I agree with Jason almost completely! Don't ditch school! Even if just want to fiddle around taking some courses that will at least help you out. But I can not recommend going in debt out your wazhoo anymore for College Tuition. When Jason I were schooling, that generation, that College Diploma was a must have and it had best been a full Bachelors Degree and not some AD or Tech College. Our generation if you didn't have the papers you didn't get crap for a job!

Now it is a bit different honestly. This is where I agree partially with Kyriakin on many points.

Kids need schooling, but need experience as well, that is if they want a good job! So go to school and get a job working in a jewelry store even while in school. Graduate with your Gemological title from the school you chose. Now you have the piece of paper and the experience needed to get those jobs! But I personally wouldn't go back again and waste my time and large amounts of money on a 4yr standard college taking all that unnecessary BS, and yes, to me to this day it has never been used, lol. Do the trade school instead so you can bypass all the BS from a normal school. But do so on Campus as Jason suggested, you want/need that experience to help you grow and help you realize how to better deal with others. It will help you in your business and life down the road further. Work part-time of full-time in the Industry while going to school, even if just a clean up boy or go getter boy, lol.Just make sure to always ask the workers lots of questions, be inquisitive, you will learn. No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers!

But don't skip College schooling totally! That would be a very bad move.

Jason's idea of the Geology degree, would be phenomenal for you to get into the Gemstone Industry. Called fluffing your resume! When I went into law enforcement, I did everything from Repossessing vehicles, to an in-house security firm in a gated self contained little city of a manufacturing company doing security, trauma, hazmat, and firefighting and they'd cert me for each and all of them! I even did Fugitive Recovery, and lowly warrant serving as well. But all looked great to the prospective employer to go alongside the ACT235 Degree from the Police Academy I graduated from and earned.

A person with no experience and no education is screwed, to be blunt, lol. A person with no education but experience, will have a hard road finding something, but eventually should still make it, but big chance to take. A person with an education and no experience will find it very hard to find a good job as well, because they lack any experience. The person with both experience and the education, is the one who will shine and end up on the top of the stack of resumes to get interviewed!

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:39 am 
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As a person who spent 28 years of his life at an institution of higher education, I have to side with Kyriakin. In the end, in my experience, it is largely who you know, not what you know or how many degrees you might have. Now, if one wants to go into teaching at the higher levels, that is a totally different story. Degrees are required, as they should be. But in the real world degrees do not count for nearly as much as they used to. I think American culture (not familiar with Europe) focuses too much on higher education when it should be focusing more on job skills, as in apprenticeships in the trades for instance. There is almost a stigma nowadays towards someone who actually does physical labor for a living. All labor should be recognized for its worth, not just that supported by academia.

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:09 am 
Jason wrote:
I'm not going to disagree with the above post by Kyriakin except to note that the single greatest challenge for me to overcome has been a lack of a bachelors degree. I've been stuck in lower in jobs my entire life because to get a higher end job you either A) have to be promoted from within or B) have a degree. If experience were all that employers wanted then I should have had no trouble finding a job in the gem/jewelry industry. I've been selling gems for 10 years. But about 85% of the job openings that I apply for state specifically that they require a bachelors. I haven't gotten a job yet.

If you can get your foot in the door and enter the industry so that you can work your way up the ladder from the get go then by all means, do so. But that's going to take some serious planning and crafty footwork to get to know those in the know so you can make moves when you want to.

J-

To be honest, with the number of stones you've handled over the years, for you not to be able to find anything is pretty outrageous. I can't see how you wouldn't be invaluable to any jeweller. Do they see you as a threat to their position, or something?

There is obviously a big over-saturation problem in this industry, but I also suspect there are also some very lazy recruiters throwing away all your non-degree applications to make their pile a bit smaller.

No degree could teach what 10 years of buying selling stones would teaches someone (be it from a commercial, spot-recognition, networking or cultural point of view).

Quote:
There is almost a stigma nowadays towards someone who actually does physical labor for a living. All labor should be recognized for its worth, not just that supported by academia.

A well-paid Japanese electrician told me that, in Tokyo, his peers are often known to change into a suit and tie just for the train commute home; such is the "if you don't wear a tie, you are a failure" stigma there.

Japan is starting to drown in unemployed university graduates too, like the rest of us, so that culture will change soon.

In China, however, they can't find enough graduates. I imagine India is the same.

I guess that's the difference between 'coming up' and 'going down' the mountain.

Quote:
Probably not going to happen in the way that you would like it to. Apprenticeships in most fields are declining for a number of reasons and their are few specific training programs for jewelers.

(1) A surplus of already-experienced people out of work, has lessened the need to hire young, green projects.

(2) People are less company-loyal nowadays. A company takes all the bumps in training someone while they are inexperienced and less-productive, but then he can take those skills/experiences elsewhere, at any time.

(3) Even if someone wants to work for very low pay, it's almost prohibited in the UK.


Last edited by Kyriakin on Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:20 am 
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How sad for Japan, a culture who has prided themselves on their crafts for centuries and, in general, are second best to none.

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 Post subject: Re: Aspiring Gemologist..what to do?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:57 am 
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Just a thought, reflecting my days at university.

I worked at a jewelry store while I was attending school.

I went to a school I could afford to attend on the salary I was making from working. I took a LOT of evening classes.

It took me 6 years to get a Bachelors but I didn't owe anyone a dime when I finished AND I had both a degree and work experience upon graduation.


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