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 Post subject: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Any comments on World Gem Society report out today entitled
"Gem Lab Fantasy"?


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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Location: The Frozen Tundra :(
:-#

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:08 pm 
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What, specifically are you referring to, Keith?
I'm not familiar with the article.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:15 pm 
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You can read it here. If you've ever read the "fine print" on a gem/diamond report, you know it's true.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:42 pm 
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ah worldgemsociety is part of ISG and they still talking about andesine :D and how they proved Tibet one is fake.lab lab lab....
i think that discussion had been resolved by GRS

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:24 pm 
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The disclaimers and protections printed on gemological reports is nothing more than legalese.
I'm not sure this has ever been tested in court......with the major labs, at least. It should be.

I am aware of some appraisers, who, when sued as the result of their reports found that all the legalese printed in small print on their documents was useless and thrown out as a defense.

One can not charge a fee for a service based on their expertise and then claim that they are not responsible for anything you paid them them to do.

Is anyone aware of results of this being tested in court with a major lab, I'd love to hear about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:32 pm 
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I'm not aware of any cases - but errors are why companies have errors and omissions insurance.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:02 am 
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major and reliable gemological labs always use Report instead of Certificate because of customer's right so they understand Lab does not certify anything and the margin of errors discussion is pointless in the end nothing involving humen in this world is 100% perfect and i don't see point of that article unless it wants to discredit some labs for their goals

in the end of the article here is what they say:
Quote:
Would you do business with someone who said they are not responsible for any errors or damages caused by their errors, even if they are negligent? Seriously? Would you do business with someone who put that disclaimer on all of their work? Your doctor? Your insurance agent? Your car dealer? Then why your jeweler or gem dealer?
Real professionals know their products.
Real professionals stand behind their work.
Real professionals take responsibility for the quality and accuracy of their work.
We recommend that you shop with a World Gem Society Registered Gem Dealer. Shop with someone who knows their products and most importantly will stand behind their product and their work.


taking some professional gem dealer's words instead of major lab's report? when a Lab with sophisticate instruments has errors simple professional gem dealer doesn't?

as a professional gem dealer it happens many times that customer asks for example near colorless 1ct round brilliant cut diamond and we got a diamond color graded as G but its really passed G and not yet I, we show to customer and explain color and that GIA does not do Split Color Grade and i show her another G color diamond but saying i will give her a better price for first stone and decision is with customer if she want that stone or not. thats what customer really need from a professional gem dealer

Diamond or gemstone Report has become an important tool, protecting the supplier and the consumer, and providing consumer confidence through consistent grading standards of that lab. a graded stone can command more than a stone without report

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:20 am 
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Times Are a Changing

I will write a lot more later but first here is some food for thought.

In just my lifetime there has been a dramatic and drastic change in several industries.

When growing up it was totally unheard of suing a Doctor or Hospital.
Now the Reality is every doctor and every hospital has had a suit filed against them

Back in the day not many Insurance Companies were sued
Now today most insurance companies have a whole office building full of attorneys to fight against getting sued or they are used to sue other entities.

When I was growing up it was unheard of suing Home Builders and Developers
Now the Reality is a lot of them are getting sued for non-disclosure of many things from building materials to environmental issues.

When growing up very few companies ever got sued
Now almost every large corporation has been sued for everything from workers rights, workplace safety and environmental issues to product liability and truth in advertizing as well.

Look at Divorce Law
I remember in my lifetime when people got divorced it was done totally different than it is done today.

The Jewelry Industry is going to be the next new feeding ground for attorneys
Believe me it is only a matter of time

Right now a company is getting all of its paperwork submitted to be able to sell stock in a company that is going to hold High Grade Cut and Polished Diamonds in a kind of a Hedge Fund for Institutions and possibly for the consumer to buy into and then when that happens then all hell is going to break loose.

Consumer Rights Groups and Consumer Education is going to be the tipping point and then once the flood gates are open then it will be open season for Jewelers, Gemologists, Appraisers and they will be getting hit from several different angles all at the same time.

Once Legal Precedence has been set in one or two different cases in one state then the whole house of cards will come falling down and it will be a major blood-bath for the entire jewelry industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:27 pm 
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I had been wondering, even before the WGS article, after reading the "fine print" on some gem reports (GIA and some lesser/never-heard-of labs):

If a gemologist is going to write gem identification reports, would it be best to have Errors and Omissions Insurance, or would it be all right (CYA) to write on the report in some type of legalese that your customer's only recourse should you make a mistake is a reimbursement of fees?

How about if you're giving a customer to whom you're selling a gemstone an identification report? Can you have the condition that the customer's only relief, should you be wrong in your identification, is reimbursement of the cost of the stone? Or, would it be best to just put the identification on the sales receipt? Does it make a difference?

All this is, of course, under the idea that you have performed due diligence and not been negligent.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:17 pm 
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My mother was in the antiques business - where she was selling things that sometimes were hard to identify, came from other people and some were things/types that were faked by people. As a dealer, she always put on the receipt what the item was and she guaranteed that she would repurchase the item at the purchase price should it be proven as something other than what she said it was. There were items that were "as is" and unidentified - and priced accordingly.

Unless you have an attorney familiar with the laws in your state craft something you put on your sales receipts (which may be a contract), I don't think you can assume whatever is written will stand up. You'd need to find out what the laws are where you are selling. You can ask an insurance agent about errors and omissions insurance, but if you are willing to repurchase the item (refund the money) you might not need coverage.

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:02 am 
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Unfortunately there is No “Get Out of Jail Free Card” or disclaimer.
Such broad far reaching statements are a fallacy.

You can only limit what you are exposed to.
That is why Most Professional Appraisers list what it is they have been contracted to do or perform
Then the appraiser lays out what they did and how they did it.
There are some things that are beyond the Scope of what an Appraiser does and they need to address those issues and concerns within the body of the report.
Such as Terms, Conditions, Limitations, Assumptions, Critical Assumptions, and extraordinary limitations and assumptions directly related to the assignment and/or a particular item within your report.
This is why a One (1) or even Three (3) Page Appraisal Report leaves YOU (The Appraiser) too exposed to possible litigation.

In my opinion ASA (American Society of Appraisers) has the most in-depth courses available in the USA to date. As far as I know the ASA Title (Accredited Senior Appraiser) or the MGA Title (Master Gemologist Appraiser) are the ONLY Titles the I.R.S. Currently recognizes. (However if this information is incorrect Please post and give information stating a copy from I.R.S. and the date of this information)

Barbara O. Ellis

Even a Gem Identification Report Error can land you in VERY HOT WATER.

Example; You Indentify a gemstone as a Synthetic Chrysoberyl/Alexandrite.
Your client sells it for $500.00 to another person.
The new owner sends it off and it is confirmed by a Major Lab as a Natural Chrysoberyl/Alexandrite now worth $6,000.00
Your old client now sues you for the difference in the loss plus they ask for Punitive and Compensatory Damages which in some states can reach or exceed 10x the amount of loss plus you now have to pick up all court costs and attorney fees from both sides.
Now even if you have Errors and Omission insurance coverage the insurance company may refuse to pay and try to prove you were negligent in your professional capacity as a gemologist. Then there is another court case for you to lose and pay for.

This is one of the reasons I am a very picky appraiser, I pass on appraising all jade pieces unless the client agrees to have each piece tested by Mason - Kay first.
I also pass on large pearl strands unless I have them tested first.
There are many pieces that are landmines ready to go off and I smile and pass them by and let someone else who doesn’t know what they are doing to do them and take the risk.
I explain clearly to the client first what are potential problems and what needs to be done as far as further tests and to bring in outside experts to confirm things and if the client refuses to spend the money and the time to get and bring in outside sources then I pass.

Remember as an Appraiser YOU DO NOT have to accept every job and you too can pick and choose what items you want to appraise. Simply explain to your client why you are refusing to do certain items.

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La Shawn Bauer, G, G, GG, ASG/AGA, CGL/AGA, CGL/IJO, CDG/IJO, RMV, CM/NAJA



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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Wow! Makes a gemologist not want to tell anyone what their stones are (or are not)! :-#

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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 am 
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Barbra Voltaire wrote:
The disclaimers and protections printed on gemological reports is nothing more than legalese.
I'm not sure this has ever been tested in court......with the major labs, at least. It should be.

I am aware of some appraisers, who, when sued as the result of their reports found that all the legalese printed in small print on their documents was useless and thrown out as a defense.

One can not charge a fee for a service based on their expertise and then claim that they are not responsible for anything you paid them them to do.

Is anyone aware of results of this being tested in court with a major lab, I'd love to hear about it.


Barbra this is largely because such disclaimers are "adhesion contracts' which have only been agreed to by one side of the contractual issue. Now IF these disclaimers were a part of the proposal or the initial contract to have services offered they would be far more likely to be enforceable. The second issue is that in most cases report users find that the lab writing the report is not willing to come to court and testify about the report At the labs expense without further compensation. It is totally reasonable on the part of the lab to expect compensation for this in my opinion, I certainly would (and have) charge for my time and the expenses I would incur in going to court and offering expert witness testimony.

Wayne M Schenk
BS (chemistry) KSU, GG Gemological Institute of America, AiSV Appraisal International Society
Jeweler, Gemologist, Valuer and part time Horologist


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 Post subject: Re: Gem Labs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:56 am 
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This is completely strange to me. But maybe that is because europeans do not sue eachother for everything. We usually can come to some kind of agreement without feeding the lawyers.

If I would do a misstake by selling a stone graded wrongly I always have a guarantee that the buyer will get his/her money back if not satisfied as long as the stone is returned in the same condition as when sold.

Most of the persons I do business with are still "old school" which means they stand behind their products completely and their word is actually worth trusting. Seems, when one reads "reports" like the above, the US market is in big trouble. Does not make me want to do any retail business there and I will stick to doing wholesale business with persons I know or have recommendations I trust.

I have always offered my customers lab reports if they wish, very few have actually demanded it.

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